Host: 0:00

Music. Hello and welcome to the IOSH podcast. In this episode, Skanska CEO, Katie Dowding talks to IOSH president, Stuart Hughes about her long and varied career in the construction industry and how important health and safety is to her and her organisation.

Stuart Hughes: 0:27

It's our CEO podcast series again, and I am super excited to welcome Kay Dowding to our podcast. She is the CEO of Skanska in the UK. She's been with Skanska for 21 years, and just recently celebrated her first-year anniversary as CEO. So Katy, I'm fairly familiar with what Skanska is and who you are, what you do, but perhaps our listeners might not be. So, could you just give us an introduction into the organisation that you lead?

Katy Dowding: 0:59

Sure. So, Skanska internationally work across the Americas, in the UK and the rest of Europe. We employ about 30,000 people, and we're a constructor and a developer, actually in our international business here in the UK, we employ about three and a half 1000 people, and work in construction, work in the infrastructure civils market as well as the building market, and we work for public sector and private sector clients. We also offer specialist services, facilities management and maintenance services.

Stuart Hughes: 1:36

That’s a broad remit, right? And I imagine that's an interesting thing to keep all on top of. And we were having a brief chat beforehand, and you mentioned some of the collaborative work you're doing on some of those public sector projects across the industry. I just wondered whether you might talk through an example of one of those, because I think that's interesting, where we see people that might normally be competitors come together to deliver something.

Katy Dowding: 2:03

Yeah, absolutely, probably a theme we'll come back to several times across the course of this conversation, I would imagine. So, for example, I believe you had Alex Vaughan from Costain on one of your earlier podcasts, and he and I work closely together in a joint venture on high speed too. So we work together, doing the tunneling from West Ruislip into Euston as well. We work very closely, not only in delivery, but of course, health, safety and wellbeing as well.

Stuart Hughes: 2:33

Awesome. Look, I'm going to dive straight into the first question, which is the one that intrigues me perhaps the most, because I don't believe it's true, but it seems to be pervasive and won't die. And that is that people at the top of organisations don't care about the people that are actually doing the work. And I wonder how that kind of resonates with you, how you react when you hear that, and why you think it might still be as pervasive as it seems to be.

Katy Dowding: 3:01

Yeah. I mean, in terms of reaction, I know it's not true for sure, but if you talk about construction at large, we’re an enormous industry, you never think from one man in a band to companies like Skanska, Costain and Balfour and the like in the UK. And so it's a broad touch. So, I can't comment on the whole of the industry, and I think, you know, I do think there is a bad rap quite often about what happens with health, safety and wellbeing that's misunderstood. So, probably what I would talk about is what we do in Skanska, and how do we tackle that issue. I think for me, it's about putting it the core values of what you stand for as an organisation. I mean two of our core values around care for life, ethically and transparently. And that's really about being open and forming those lines of communication. I think that's what's in two-way communication. I think actually, for your employees to know what you talk about in terms of your values and your standards, they have to hear it firsthand, and they have to feel that they have an input into it as well, that they’re listened to for sure. And we test that. We test that with our people and the people who work with the organisation. So, we test it with supplier feedback, with our supply chain, but also in our engagement survey, where we ask that question, and we get scored in terms of this, and then we look at improvements and so we ask our employees if they believe there's management commitment to health and safety in the organisation? Do they believe that their concerns are understood in the organisation? Currently, we score really well in that, we never sit on our laurels. We always make sure that that's fed back. But I think one of the things that's been important for us is we run our injury free environment program, and that really looks at the behavioral side, the safety as well as the process side, and that's very much about those communications, those relationships, getting the two-way feedback. We've been running that for 14 years now, and you really grow to understand what that means about behavior and culture, making the relationship with safety two way between the organisation and the employees as well.

Stuart Hughes: 5:34

In the last 12 months that you've led the organisation, is there anything specifically different that you've done in that space, or is there anything that I don't know, maybe in any interactions or feedback that you've had that you found surprising?

Katy Dowding: 5:55

One of the things that's always been important to me, I'm not sure I've done this differently, but it takes on different condos. I think visibility of leadership's really important. I will always try and maximize the number of site visits I carry out a year. I typically carry out between 2526 site visits a year. But really making those meaningful. And actually, when I go out to a project, you don't just walk around with the project lead. You engage with the project teams that are out on site. We listen to the project teams that are out on site. And actually you take feedback, you take action on it, and you follow up on it as well. So, I would say that's something different, or something I've always done. But of course, you know, in my role currently, that takes on the different context as well. I do believe, you know this very much comes from leadership, being really clear and very strong about not compromising on safety. Put a really strong message. Whatever I might be communicating, I might be communicating about cost efficiencies. I might be communicating about productivity, but never letting that be to the expense of safety, and not letting people make that mental leap for themselves. Being really clear that we need to drive this improvement in the business. We want to push for this cost efficiency, but we will not compromise on safety and constantly reinforcing that message is so important.

Stuart Hughes: 7:31

And I think that’s really powerful to hear you say those things, because I think it's quite easy for people to hear, the single message, isn't it? Where it's like, okay, well, we've got a cost efficiency drive. So that means cost efficiency of all else. And what you're actually saying is we need to find the opportunities to do cost efficiency, but we can't do that at the expense of safety and there'll probably be some others in there as well. But I think that real explicit, natural, we can be safe and cost effective in harmony is really, really powerful. When you go and do your site visits, this is something I'm interested in, how do you break down that, whether it's real or perceived, that kind of power barrier or dynamics where people might feel a little bit ‘I don't know if I can speak to the CEO’ type thing. So how would you navigate that when you're on site?

Katy Dowding: 8:33

I think one of the things I've always said, because I genuinely want to know, and it’s the reason I do this. But as opposed to saying to somebody, why are you doing that? What's that you know? Should you be doing something like that? Talk me through what you're doing. Explain to me the activity that you're carrying out, how you've been here, how you set a barrel to it, how do you approach it? And actually, most people out on a project, love to tell you what they're doing. They're really proud of what they're doing. So giving people the opportunity to explain that, and t then you could explore the process that's been gone through. You know how the approach to safety was, but giving people the opportunity to speak to you and tell you about what they're doing, well, most people are very keen to open up and tell you. I get to learn some stuff as well, which is really good.

Stuart Hughes: 9:29

Every day is a learning opportunity, right? And I think that one of the things that I'm always fascinated about in your world, in construction, and it blows my mind, is I don't really understand how these things happen because 10 years ago, this thing wasn't there, and then it gets created and it functions, and it all works perfectly. And it's a mega combination of all of these really intrinsically challenging parts coming together to build a beautiful structure. And if I'm honest, I don't really understand the first bit about it. So, I imagine that kind of curiosity as you go around, and you'll obviously have a much better understanding of the mechanisms, and I will, but like you say, you learn that bit about I don't know why people are laying foundations in a certain way, or how the steel grid goes up in a certain way, or I don't know why the crane driver goes in a certain direction.

Katy Dowding: 10:24

I think that's the key word, curiosity. And actually, quite interestingly, if you ask somebody about what they're doing, and then you say, oh, how does that interface with this other trade? And then they might say, I haven't really thought about that. I don't know that. How they know what I'm doing. That's probably something we should think about, if you approach it from that curious perspective, actually, most people think about them challenging, they challenge themselves, as opposed to have you coordinated with the bricklayer. Have you done this? And they're like, yes, yes. I think if you come from the curiosity perspective, because most people you know, everybody is on a project, nobody wants to hurt anybody. Everyone's come for the best of intentions, for sure. So, most people are there to tease out the answers for themselves and genuinely believe in that, and they know a lot more about how to do it Bob than I do, that's for sure.

Stuart Hughes: 11:33

I work in an environment where insanely intelligent people are doing very clever things that I couldn't possibly try and comprehend. And I find my job is just to go poke around a bit curiously and help them find their way through some of those challenges, rather than certainly not telling them what to do, which I think nobody likes in the spirit of curiosity. Then I'm going to get a little bit curious about the OSH profession and where we sit, and perhaps, you know some of this clamor for OSH people to be on the board, and really at that top table, is it something that you think is necessary? Do you have OSH people on your board or in your C suite, or is it an information chain that flows up that way? How does it work for you?

Katy Dowding: 12:28

For me, absolutely, OSH needs to be at the top table. But I don't think that necessarily means the lead needs to sit as part of the C suite. Here in Skanska, Dylan, who leads on this. There's a lease on this for us, there's a fantastic job. He's directly reporting to me so absolutely that makes sure that that voice is at the table. And I think that's very much about the relationship between the two of us. It's about that he knows that he can trust me to represent his voice at the table, take his points across. He knows he can challenge me, and I will bring that challenge into the room as well. Physically, he joins us once a quarter as well. So, helps to hold us accountable as well. But, I think that’s very much about them. Absolutely, the voice has got to be there, whether physically, somebody needs to sit as part of the C suite or not. You can debate. But 100% the voice, the voice of the OSH professional, needs to be at the top table loud and clear. It can be done, personally represented to one of the execs.

Stuart Hughes: 13:44

And how do you, obviously, it sounds like you've developed a very strong relationship there, which is probably half of the battle to overcome. But how do you ensure that the information that you get is useful, and how have you built that relationship so that you know you've got that, that openness to challenge, I think, is my kind of dissection of that.

Katy Dowding: 14:11

I think certainly it's about both of us being transparent with one another. Absolutely knowing that there's that for empowerment to be able to challenge, of course, I think that there's a point of mutual respect that plays a very important part. Dylan is such an expert in this field, I have huge respect for him. And I know that when he brings information to me, it's fact based, and it's tested. But I also know he's integrating with the organisation, that he doesn't sit in an OSH bubble saying, I don't know, I don't care how the business works. This is what we need to do. He really understands the business. When he brings something to me, it's not just something is dreamt up in a glass bubble. It's something that's been discussed with the organisation, tested for robustness, whether it will work in the organisation. So, when they come to me, they're well founded ideas. So, when I take that to my board I can come with the strength to believe this is a well thought through proposition.

Stuart Hughes: 15:27

As a leader of an organisation, obviously you've got this, this direct reporting, but there'll be, I imagine, quite a number of people servicing Dylan as well there. So, what is it that you need from the OSH professionals within your organisation? And how would you ensure that you get that?

Katy Dowding: 15:53

I think certainly part of that is bringing their professional networks to our organisation. Health, safety, wellbeing, is a non-compete item in the industry. None of us, or all of us in the industry want to work together to get the highest possible standard. But as a network of professionals, they can bring a huge amount of knowledge from our peers, our competitors, our clients, people they previously worked for. So certainly, bringing all of that knowledge, experience and expertise to the table is important to me. I think it's also about time horizons that they think as well say, sometimes there's some short-term thinking, there's an incident that's happened that needs to be investigated and followed up on absolutely, then also it's thinking about the medium and the long term. Actually, what's coming down the line, where's the industry go? What's the future of the industry look like? What are the technologies and innovations that are coming forward, so how do we need to be planning and organizing our business strategically to set up for those what I really need is that short, medium and long term thinking being brought to the table as well. I think the other thing for me, and this brilliant phrase I heard earlier today said, if everyone in the pool is a lifeguard, you don't need any lifeguards. Yeah, nice. And I think for me, what you know, what I want, how safety, wellbeing professionals is actually to help. They can empower the rest of the organisation to be better, because this is owned by all of us. You're all three and a half 1000 people. But we need these professionals to help keep thinking about the right things, the short, medium and long term future, informing and educating us, sharing best practice across the organisation, helping us to focus on the right settings. This is the one way you can give somebody a fishing rod, and they can eat and live. Give somebody something sufficient and they eat for a day. And I think that is the real sense of what I need from those professionals in the organisation.

Stuart Hughes: 18:08

I suppose one of the things that I will say, is that we've not got perhaps the best reputation as a safety profession. Perhaps we're not seen as enablers or forward thinkers and joining the dots through stuff and I think it feels like a fairly old-fashioned view of us, in my opinion. I think we're quite an enabling organisation. But, everybody has different experiences with their interactions of the people they come across that do the roles. But do you see the function as an enabling function, or do you think that we've still got some way to go to rid ourselves of the clipboard police type scenario that we get tarnished with?

Katy Dowding: 18:59

Certainly as scans for explicit they're actually called an enabling function. So, we're that overt about it. And we talk about the partnership between the function and the operation. These are fully integrated teams. They don't sit separately. They sit in the operational part of the business, they form part of the operational business. They’re absolutely hand in glove. They're not seen as separate. But importantly, we do have this line coming through the function into me. That provides that triangulation to make sure, because it is important they're integrated and they're an avian function, but they've actually got to be able to challenge operations and hold operations to account as well. So, it's the duality of the role.

Stuart Hughes: 19:56

It's often a challenge, isn't it? And you get great safety people in an organisation, they go and build great relationships with the operational departments and all of that. And then there comes the awkward moment where there's a difficult conversation to be had. And it's that, I suppose, that seesaw balance of, how do I effectively understand the organisation, but keep the healthy respect amongst everybody, so that, when we need to, we can dial into that. Is that challenge something you're conscious of?

Katy Dowding: 20:32

I'd like to say it doesn't happen very often, because actually, I think you know in terms of an enabling function, they work together with operations, because we all want the same things, that there shouldn't be a battle, the health, safety, wellbeing function understands that we want to deliver projects on time, into budget and to customer satisfaction. And operations understand that we want to do this safely so we don't harm anybody. So, actually I can't remember the last time that we've had a conflict, an outcome is, we just have to work together. How we get to that mutual outcome from understanding each other.

Stuart Hughes: 21:11

And they each serve each other, don't they like the fact that you want to deliver something on time and on budget? Well, if we get safety wrong, that's going to have a significant impact on us being able to do that. So, I think it's helping people see that alignment to the central objective, and how both parties come together to help that, to help achieve that.

Katy Dowding: 21:34

And I think, if you're having that medium term planning approach, you don't actually hit those points of conflict because you're thinking ahead. So, actually when you're looking at the scheme of work ahead, or the direction you're trying to take the business, you can see any points where there could be a challenge between Operation Safety, okay? How can we work it out so we meet both of the objectives, and if thinking far enough ahead, you know you should overcome those problems.

Stuart Hughes: 22:08

That’s a really lovely bit. I haven't touched on in any of the other [episodes], actually. And I think that kind of horizon scanning and the benefits of that in terms of reducing friction, is a really, really interesting point to focus on. There was something you said a little bit earlier that just piqued my interest, which is, we don't compete on health safety or wellbeing. And I just wanted to explore that with you if I could, because I imagine that a great safety reputation, and looking after the health of your employees and care for their wellbeing could be a differentiator in terms of employer of choice, but this idea is not something that we compete on it as an industry. But what do we mean by that, and how does that play out?

Katy Dowding: 23:00

I think for me, the best competitive advantage actually is knowing I've got a better safety record than they have. It’s actually how you show leadership for the industry. So, if an incident happened, you've had a challenge actually being able to tell a story about, yes, how you fix that issue, that problem, but then how you led the rest of the industry to improve the standards, how you collaborated with some of your peers, how you might have engaged with professional organisations to change standards so that sort of incident never happens again. That's a much better story than saying I've had one less incident than my competitors. I've raised a standard in the industry, and I've stopped this incident ever happening again, because we've changed the standards. If I'm a client, I'm buying that over the other person.

Stuart Hughes: 24:02

Well, this is the interesting point for me; in quite a few presentations that I do, I challenge the audience to name me a story from the Bible. And I do this because I think most people can name at least one. And if you've got a different religious text, then I'll probably learn a new parable or fable or story, and then those people that have their hands up, I'll ask them, what was their LTI, or whatever kind of rate you want to talk about for the previous 12 months? And most people look quite blankly because the stats. don't really resonate in the same way that a story does. And you can remember this story that's 2000 years old, and this point that you've just spoken about, this narrative arc that you can build on the change that you were delivering and the impact you're having on the sector as a whole, is really, really powerful. And I wonder whether we're missing it off. Opportunity and in terms of safety, are we focusing too much on numbers and statistics to make decisions that don't necessarily resonate with people? And could we do more in this storytelling space that you've just spoken to? I wonder what your thoughts are on that.

Katy Dowding: 25:16

Yeah, I suppose for me, I don't think it's a beginning or an end. I think when we think about statistics, it's not only lagging measures, it's actually thinking about the leading measures as well. So, the stuff that you do at the front that drives the right safety performance, the construct of learning and sharing and evolving. You know, incidents happen. Let's really be open, transparent and honest. There's nothing to be gained by trying to cover up on my own. Let's really get to the root causes of why things have happened. So, then we can adjust the real problems, then we share that learning, then we engage with others, and that's when you affect real change.

Stuart Hughes: 26:07

It's the interesting thing isn't it when you talk about an industry, all of a sudden you start to break down some of the geopolitical barriers that might be out there. All of a sudden, it's not just we're doing this in the UK, it can be expanded at a global rate. And I think that's the really powerful thing, where you start to think, actually, it's not just in my location, it's not just in my organisation. It's actually much bigger than that. And I think that’s the piece that really resonates with me. There is that idea of that it's the stuff that you do up front, it's the preparation that really has the biggest impact on the outcome of safety. So, I think that's really powerful to hear from you.

Katy Dowding: 26:57

But we did a piece of work. We had a safety incident involving outriggers on a lorry. And we took some learning from that. We shared it with our peers, but then we engaged with the number of industry bodies to affect permanent change. You know, those sort of wagons won't just be delivering to construction sites. Those sort of wagons will be delivering to lots of other types of things as well. So, actually, we've not just improved construction, it's gone wider than that. The potential for harm is huge. That’s a much better thing to compete on than whether my stats. are a little bit different to yours.

Stuart Hughes: 27:40

I really, really like that, and I'm glad that I came back to it to unpack, because I thought it's a nice phrase, but really, really getting under what that means was really insightful. So, thank you. Really appreciate that. Just before I fire into some quick fire questions, as a leader of 3500 people. What are the things that worry you from a health and safety perspective, and why do they cause you concern?

Katy Dowding: 28:11

I think it's fair to say, not just in this job, but my roles I've had before, the way through operations. I don't think there's a moment of the day, I was just saying The Waking Moment. There's probably a few when you're asleep as well. I’ve got three and a half 1000 direct employees, probably two, three times more than that by time. I include the supply chain as well, working 24 hours a day, seven days a week. So, it's always there. Complacency is always a concern, without a doubt, and I think this is why it's so important to keep reiterating the messages in relation to health, safety, wellbeing as competing priorities. You know, the world's getting hard and markets are getting tougher. We're always trying to find a way to save a few quid, to make a bit more money, to go a bit faster, to be a bit more innovative, and some of those competing projects, that's where you’ve got to be really clear in terms of your messaging. Yes, all of those things are important, but it doesn't mean anything without the right approach to health, safety, wellbeing. And because there's a risk, because we've got a lot of speed change, new technologies AI is coming in new ways of working, new customers coming into the markets, and making sure that we can keep speed with that in terms of keeping ourselves safe. So, it's probably something and construction has typically had quite a transient workforce, even within companies like myself might have a 10% churn of staff. Then we've got a supply chain which is frequently moving post Brexit. We’ve seen a big chain. So how do we keep ourselves at the same standard when we have that constant, transitionable workforce?

Stuart Hughes: 30:08

And those two things fit together neatly, don't they? Because there is this speed of change. And the world's faster than it's ever been, it certainly feels like that to me. And there's new stuff coming and coming and coming and coming, so trying to keep ahead of that is a challenge. But also, how do we maintain our standards with the speed of change and not get complacent? They loop together, don't they in a challenge problem?

Katy Dowding: 30:37

You put all that together from just a wellbeing perspective as well. When I started in the industry, there weren't mobile phones. And then probably about two or three years in, there was a big thing about this size for trace to keep in the car, whereas people now, they’ve got their phones, they’ve got emails, they’ve got all their apps going off. Just in terms of their mental health, the level of distraction that creates all the pressures of the cost of living, crisis, what that does for people's mental health and fatigue. So, that constant bombardment and at the same time, we're asking them to do more and more projects in terms of their processes and controls. There are more regulations. It’s a huge volume that people are having to deal with. So, the chances for missing things become greater, the damage to people's mental health and wellbeing becomes greater. So really making sure you're thinking about those and helping people to manage that's so important.

Stuart Hughes: 31:40

I think I feel like I could probably explore each of those topics with you in depth. I’m really enjoying the conversation, but I also want to be respectful of your time, and I'm conscious you've probably got something else to go into after we've spoken, so I'm going to hit the quick-fire questions, if I may. So, what's the best piece of advice you've ever been given?

Katy Dowding: 32:01

I think this role is to look after yourself, lead by example. For example, I go for a walk every lunchtime just to clear my head, decompress, reset. It helps keeps me sane. So that's an important part of looking after yourself. And I make sure I look after myself, and I make sure my employees look after themselves as well. 32:26

Stuart Hughes: 32:26

Great bit of leading by example as well, because you normalize that it's an okay thing to do, and on the flip of that, then what's the worst piece of advice you've ever been given?

Katy Dowding: 32:36

Probably very, very early in my career, I was sat down by a site supervisor, and he said to me, I know you want to get everyone to wear hard hats, he said, but I guarantee as long as I live, you're never going to get everyone to do that. Give up on it. Now he was wrong.

Stuart Hughes: 32:57

I anticipated that might be the answer. It's interesting, isn't it, though, how things have changed, in terms of what was the social norm, or the kind of characteristics of construction to where we are today.

Katy Dowding: 33:14

Yeah, for sure, I still have some photographs of those projects of the late 80s, and they're heroic. If you look at them now, they make your toes curl, that's for sure.

Stuart Hughes: 33:28

And I think it's always fascinating, when you look back, see how far things have come, and then you've got half your eye on looking forward and then trying to understand how different things will be in the future. And is there a book that you like to read or return to fairly often, or a book that you give to people, that you'd give us as a recommendation, or, if you're not a reader, a podcast or something like that?

Katy Dowding: 33:54

So, I should probably come up with some fantastic management time at this point. But if you haven't read it, and I have gifted probably 10 copies of this book to people, The Boy, The Mole, The Fox and The Horse. I don't know if you see it at Christmas, it's a very quick read. It's got quite a good life philosophy, and I gift it to people quite often, so I can recommend that it's only about a tenner on Amazon, quite good.

Stuart Hughes: 34:26

There we are. Okay, I'll get myself one of those. I look forward to that. And then what failure has perhaps provided you with your biggest learning?

Katy Dowding: 34:36

I would probably say for failure, my A levels the first time around, actually, but technically not failing. But the grades were so abysmal that I had to have another go at them. But that was probably because until that point, I'd gone through school quite easily without a lot of effort, and I thought everything would just fall into my lap, and then having suddenly that realization that I’m infallible and I'm human, and you can't take things for granted, so feeling failure and not wanting to fail again. So that was a very good lesson. It was a horrible feeling. You don't want to do it again.

Stuart Hughes: 35:24

But we are all fallible, right? And I think it's one of the things that the profession probably struggles with a bit, because failure can have quite significant consequences in our line of work. But, we're one facet in a multi of other facets that enable amazing things to happen. But work has to be a collaboration of a multitude of different functions for it to be sustainable and for it to progress. So, I think it's interesting that we perhaps shouldn't be afraid of acknowledging our fallibility and understanding where we need the help of others to make progress.

Katy Dowding: 36:06

It’s the absolute enemy of working safely, isn't it? If you think it's probably true, the way you do everything is absolutely perfect, and you can't be told anything, and nobody should tell you what to do. You know that’s definitely the enemy, of course. Somebody who says, I want to listen to others. Is there a better way of doing this? Can somebody help me with this? Can I do this better? That's when you're going to improve safety.

Stuart Hughes: 36:36

Great. That feels like a wonderful place to finish, but I will just give you the opportunity, if there's anything that we've not covered, that you desperately wanted to say, or there's any kind of final thing you want to leave the listeners with, I'll let you have that final word.

Katy Dowding: 36:49

No, I think it's great. If anyone is listening to the podcast, I think, by the very fact that you're listening to this and wanting to know more, and want to develop and want to do better, then you know you're certainly on the right track, because that's what we've all got to do to achieve more.

Stuart Hughes: 37:07

Great Katie, look, thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate it. I know I'm going to really enjoy looking, listening back to this, going through it, and taking some of the insights for myself as well. And I'm sure all of the listeners will get a lot from it, and I just really, really appreciate the fact that you've carved out some time to have a chat with us today. So thank you very much.

Katy Dowding: 37:29

My pleasure. Really nice speaking to you. Thank you.

Host: 37:32

Thanks for listening. Tune in again soon for more conversations and all things health and safety. out the people that are actually doing the work.