Stuart Hughes: 0:00

Just before we get into the question set, perhaps you could give us a bit of background on your journey to being CEO at Farnborough International, and what it is that you look after in your organisation.

Gareth Rogers: 0:11

So Farnborough International is an events business based in the exhibition and conference market. It's most famous for the farmer International Air Show, one of the largest and most global conference and trade events in the world. I've been in with the business around six years. Before that, I was CEO of a Premier League football club in Southampton, and before that, I was actually an accountant, so an obvious route!

Stuart Hughes: 0:44

An obvious route to the top! I was going to ask which football team, but when you said Southampton, it became obvious! I'm familiar with Farnborough Air Show. My dad used to work in the aviation industry, and we used to go and make that pilgrimage fairly regularly. I've got fond memories of the Harrier Jump Jets doing the old vertical takeoffs.

Gareth Rogers: 1:06

I hear that a lot, a lot of people said the amount of times that they were inspired by it as a child, or went there in their youth. So it's a common thing to hear, but it's a great thing to hear as well.

Stuart Hughes: 1:20

I think that's the thing, isn't it? When you're responsible for things that make memories for people, it's really cool. I'm really grateful to have some time with you today. And I think one of the key things that I want to get out of the CEO series is really understanding the care that happens from the top of the organisation throughout, to the people that are on the ground doing the harder yards of the work, perhaps. So my first question is around, what I think is quite a lazy trope that exists on social media, where people say that those at the top of an organisation leading it don't care about their workforce. I wonder how that makes you feel, and why you think that view might be pervasive?

Gareth Rogers: 2:06

It's always sad when you hear that. I can't speak for every organisation, because that would be wrong, but ultimately, there is a genuine care there. And I think more than anything, it's sometimes just a mismatch of expectations, and particularly for a larger organisation as well, there are only so many hours in a day, and only so many people you can speak to, have conversations with, or return emails to, or whatever it might be. And it's not through a lack of will. I think it's just often through a lack of time, more than anything. But I've never really come across that many organisations where that genuinely is the case, but it's something that I probably thought if the roles were reversed at some point in time in my life. So I understand where it comes from, but I don't think it's as true as what most people would think it is.

Stuart Hughes: 3:23

Specifically, if we look at your organisation, what would you say are the things that you do, either yourself or through your leadership team, that demonstrate that care to the workforce?

Gareth Rogers: 3:36

I think firstly, is it not all to be in one place? So it's not just myself. There's something that gets passed down the entire leadership structure, there's a consistency of behaviours, a consistency of messaging, and we don't get it right all of the time. I know we don't. We strive to, but naturally we're not going to. And more than anything, it's about trying to be open with them, not try to keep things from them. But that's also a difficulty in the fact that if you spend your time telling them absolutely everything from every part of the business, that creates its own problems the other way as well. So it's finding the right balance and also asking questions and answering their questions. So, for example, we would do quarterly staff meetings. We do a quarterly staff survey, and we put the entire staff survey results up on screen and go through them one by one and talk through what we're trying to do and change and look at and those sort of things. And since we started doing that, that's really helped, because it's not a case of you're doing a staff survey, and then it gets hidden in an email somewhere. It's actually up there, saying here's a weak point, and this is what we're trying to do about it.

Stuart Hughes: 5:19

Yeah, and I think that transparency is really key. And I think also that ability to in person, feedback and see and hear it helps with the authenticity of the messaging, without a shadow of a doubt. And I think it's really candid as well. And I think that honesty of you know, we're all doing our best here, but we're also human beings and fallible, and might make mistakes along the way, but we're happy to kind of own them, and, you know, be honest about those. So I think that's a really powerful thing to hear. Because I think sometimes people just assume that leadership are one directional and just focused on that sole end goal, and the other things don't really fully interact with it.

Gareth Rogers: 6:04

Of course, this is my opinion. My staff may tell you completely the opposite if you did a podcast with them.

Stuart Hughes: 6:12

I know a member of your staff, which is one of the reasons that we're talking and they have nothing but good things to say about your availability, accessibility and being a fairly decent, normal human being, which is probably a nice glowing reference, I imagine, but I'm glad that we've been able to bust that myth a little bit from actually, as a leadership there's somebody that leads an entire organization, there's a genuine care for the people that work within it. If I switch lanes a little bit and go into the IOSH profession, and one of the things I hear quite a lot from IOSH professionals, is a demand or a desire for a seat on the board. And I wonder what your thoughts were of IOSH being at the C suite, or on the board?

Gareth Rogers: 7:06

I don't think there's a single answer to that in terms of there being right or wrong. To me, the board is not the relevant thing that the piece is about, what is the access to the board? What are the board talking about? How does that filter upwards? How does it filter back downwards? How do you ensure that what needs to be talked about is talked about and also, maybe it also goes to your second question that you asked around, how do you implement certain things? And how do you implement communication is not necessarily seeing the board as a decision making authority, but seeing that yes, they are decisions to be made, but actually seeing them as there to share their experience and their knowledge based on what they know and don't know and that they're not there to ratify things. They're there to be built into a process, particularly around health and safety, and used at the right intervals in the right time, rather than, I want to speak to them once every six months, and therefore I only get to do that if I sit on the board. And I think that to me, would be the more important pieces. Don't worry as to whether you're sat on there is, are you getting what you need out of it?

Stuart Hughes: 8:45

And beautiful, because it lines into my follow up questions almost like I've planned it. That's a really, really great viewpoint for is it in your organization? How do you ensure that IOSH is on the board agenda?

Gareth Rogers: 8:59

Well, firstly, there's a simple thing of, we have a standing agenda point for it, and there has to be something written there. So it's written by the operations director. And if there are issues that need to be raised, he will raise them. So that's the simple piece. But I think fundamentally, it's about what's the best way of describing it? I would say it's about how you feel about health and safety. It's about what is the culture that you have created within there? Because ultimately, if you create a culture where health and safety is important, then naturally that will flow from top to bottom. But what I would say is it's really important to have it set at the top. And by the top, I don't necessarily mean just the CEO, and that's their own responsibility, but in terms of everyone that flows down that chart, and everyone around it sees it as an important thing, and what if you get that bit, right? My suspicion is that's the that's the most important bit, because the rest of it, I'm not going to say it's easy, but it doesn't matter whether it's health and safety or whether it's finance, or whether it's commercial or whatever it might be, if there isn't a mindset to want to deal with it and talk about it in the organization at senior levels, then it's not going to be further down the organization. I think there was a survey done by Harvard Business Review, or something, I don't know, many years ago, but there were four categories, which were in an organization as to what made you do certain things from your leaders. Was it what they said? The second was what they wrote. The third was the policies and procedures of the organization, and the fourth was what they attend to and what they look at, and 80% of what influences what work gets done below a leader is what they look at and what they attend to. It doesn't matter what they write, what they say. It almost doesn't really matter what the policies are, because if they've written a policy and they're not attending to that policy, it doesn't matter anyway, does it? It's therefore, I know it sounds wooly but if it's been paid attention to by the leadership or by a manager, or your line manager, whatever it might be, then naturally you're going to pay attention to it too. Yeah, we all do it. You know, we all have, everyone has a boss somewhere in life, and if they pay attention to something, you tend to pay attention to it too.

Stuart Hughes: 12:10

Yeah, it's very chair. Are you conscious of the leadership shadow that you cast? If you think about the fact that you've got this insight of what gets attended to, gets paid attention and is prioritized. But are you conscious of your presence within the organization, and how you would attend to things, and the impact that that has on the people within your world?

Gareth Rogers: 12:34

Yeah, I saw for example, if you put it specifically into that health and safety world, we have a thirdly. So three times a year we have a health and safety meeting with all the key personnel who are involved in it. And whilst I don't chair that meeting, I attend that meeting. And just purely being there, in my mind, shows how important that sits in the organization. And yeah, so therefore it does matter, and being there and then raising questions and comments and those sort of things, then naturally it becomes something that gets looked at and gets used. But, I think most leaders are conscious of that. Certainly ones I've come across, you have to be. I think it almost goes to your very first question you asked about, how do you create, how do you show that care and everything is, if you never show it, then it doesn't matter what you say.

Stuart Hughes: 13:50

And if I take you to those meetings that you you attend and have your presence at to demonstrate its value, and then think up into your leadership group, what information is it or what messaging is it that's helpful for you to be able to make effective decisions around the IOSH strategy and IOSH agenda?

Gareth Rogers: 14:16

So just to clarify, are you speaking specifically as a CEO, or do you mean for the organization as a

Stuart Hughes: 14:24

I'm interested in both really. I don't mind which whole? way you answer that. I think I'd be interested to see personally what is helpful or useful for you as a CEO. But if you want to broaden that out for the organizational context, I think both things are interesting to understand.

Gareth Rogers: 14:40

So I think from a CEO, I've run two organizations now that where there's a significant third party people presence in and around the organization on a regular basis, with mass crowds and people coming to events and those sort of things. So, from that perspective, what I've learnt is firstly understanding the risk that will be probably number one above anything else. And when I talk about that, what do I mean by that? I mean, where does it lie? Where are the riskiest areas? Where do we need to focus our time and energies and those sort of things? And also, what I would say is, what's the best way of describing it? What do you need to make sure that your team know you're focusing on so they understand the risk? So it's all well and good in terms of me knowing that. But actually, do I then pass that back down to say, wait a minute, do you understand what the key risks in our organization are? So that would be the first thing I would add and be clear, when I speak about risk, I think it's really important that a lot of health and safety issues that I've heard and observed, is that clash between commercial and operational health and safety, where we shouldn't do it because it's not safe. But we need to do it because commercially, it earns us money. And I think when I talk about risk, what the important thing is that I always try and put to people is, under understanding the risk does not mean that you shouldn't do an activity. It just means that you're doing it in order to understand what protections you need to put around it. Now, that doesn't mean to say that you shouldn't stop an activity if there isn't appropriate risk mitigation in place. But when I talk about understanding the risk, it's not about saying that's risky, therefore we must not do it as we have run a military jet flying display above our heads at a trade show, I mean in terms of high risk events. But we don't not do it because of that. We just put huge amounts of of mitigation in place. So I think that's really, really important. The second piece would be context. And that's always something that I think a lot of businesses struggle to achieve. And I think it is something that, from an app, from an IOSH perspective, I think will be a really interesting piece to try and help businesses with. And by context, I will often see a bunch of statistics that said we've had this many accidents per 1000 people that have visited the site, or whatever it might be. And I'd say I don't know if that sounds a lot or not. It doesn't sound a lot, but maybe that isn't, if that's three times as high as what you would expect in this forum, or whatever it might be. So I think that would be the second piece, the understanding the context. And then the third is, and this is not really what I need. It's something that I have to set but then it leads on to something, there has to be a culture around health and safety, of complete and utter transparency with how you're doing things and what you do. And by that, I mean that if you don't have that, and as a leader, you don't have that, then you don't know whether there's a problem or not sometimes. I've not had that in the organization I've done, but I've openly tried to make sure that isn't the case, and it's almost set in the culture of saying it's okay for there to be a problem, so near miss reporting is just as important as reporting an accident, but don't hide near misreporting because it wasn't an accident, and therefore it looks like we had less issues, because, let's be honest, that was probably by pure fluke, that it wasn't an accident. If it was a near miss, it wasn't, generally good planning. So, I think it's that, it's that culture, that's the third piece I would look at. And there's no I said, it's not a what do I need? But if, therefore, I don't have the right information coming upwards, then, in reality, I'm not going to get the information, I'm not going to be able to make the right decisions, if that makes sense.

Stuart Hughes: 20:10

Yeah and I think the absolute gold in that is there are three key things there that are critical for the IOSH profession, right? So one risk exists, and without risk, like progress doesn't happen. So we need to make sure that when we're doing effective risk management, we are enabling things to occur, rather than hampering things, but also with the empowerment to stop things when it goes beyond the risk tolerance of an organization. So I think that's super powerful to hear. I'm really glad to hear you say context, because I think context is king. I think without the broader understanding of what's going on, it's very hard to decipher what the statistics mean. And I'm with you, is that a lot? Is it not a lot? What do I compare it to, it's not overly helpful. And I think that bit is really useful for the profession, to hear that actually, beyond the number, we want to understand what that means to the people or those impacted by what we do. And I think culture is always going to be an important thing. And to hear that if you don't get the right information up, then you don't have such an awareness of what's going on culturally, and that means that that impacts the decisions. I think those things are really powerful to hear as a three. So thank you very much for those and I think you might have answered this question. So I was just going to see if there's anything else you want to add to it. But in leading your organization, other than those three things that you've spoken about, is there anything else that you need from your IOSH professionals? You touched on the transparency piece, which I thought was really powerful, is there anything else that sits there? Or have we done two in one? And I'll move along,

Gareth Rogers: 22:01

I think I would say that there is one other thing, and I think it's an important piece, and it's something that we're working to improve, is when something is discovered, identified, a point made. Some where there could be an improvement or something, what is the action that's taken as a result, and what is the feedback loop to ensure that everybody knows that action has been taken? And that leads on to probably a further point, which is about, how are you therefore auditing something your health and safety culture and your IOSH culture acrosss the organization? Because ultimately, all the processes and all the things you have in place are preventative measures. You can't really deal with health and safety after the event. It's not once it's happened, it's happened. All you can do is mitigate the injury or the problem or whatever it is that has occurred as a result of it. And therefore, how do you know, as a leader, that they are in place, that that is happening in your organization? And that to me, is you set the culture and you do other things. But how do you create an audit trail and an audit process to give me the comfort as a leader to go, yes, it is? So building up to the farmbore show, we have 4000 contractors on site the couple of weeks beforehand, all with hammers and chisels and screwdrivers and drills and, and rushing 100 mile an hour to get something done. Firstly I am useless with anything that involves DIY or anything like that. So I personally wouldn't have a clue what people are doing anyway in terms of whether it's the right thing or the wrong thing, but other than if it's obviously wrong. But how would I check I couldn't check that many people? So what are the processes? How do they do it? And more importantly, then, how do you audit it and get that information fed back? And I think one of the key bits that's really, really important to that, is convincing people in your organization that this is about protecting them rather than trying to catch them out. So if they have done something and ticked a box, and they've done it on a regular basis, and there's an audit trail to that, should anything occur, it protects them because they did the things that they were asked to do as an organization. If they haven't done something, maybe we can understand why they haven't done it. Maybe it was because I kept getting called away. Well, if that's a really, really important health and safety process, how do we stop you getting called away during that process? You know that you couldn't complete all the tasks you needed to do, whatever it might be. And I think that having looked at what you're saying, I think that would be the fourth thing is that feedback look and that auditing, because fundamentally, it is about prevention rather than cure. And therefore you need to know that things are going to be prevented.

Stuart Hughes: 25:46

Yeah, and I think it's a really interesting point there, isn't it where how strong is the is the governance of the processes that we've got to be effective? And how can I place my trust in the systems that we've got to enable me to make those effective decisions, or to understand where we may have weaknesses and take effective action. So again, I think they're really strong points, because sometimes you can feel right, what is the value of the of the piece of work that I'm doing? And to hear the where it adds value at the top of the organization is interesting. You've touched on a few things there. So, high volume of contractors. I probably similar to you, I know which end of the hammer you use, but beyond that, I'm not really a practical man, but you've talked about some of the risks that happen within the events industry. But I just wondered what specifically within your organization, what are the risks that you worry about, and why do they call cause you concern?

Gareth Rogers: 26:48

Well, firstly I've already touched on one, having a flying display at an airport that involves military aircraft flying and doing flips, tricks, all sorts of things, that's sometimes terrifying. I probably say that more than anything, I think the other piece is knowing that there's so many places that you could do something wrong. So we're bringing it out. It's not just national, but we had a show at the start of the year where we had 5000 people in on a day. But those 5000 people have to park their car, have to get from the car park, have to get into the building. The waters have to be appropriately clean. The food has to be appropriately served with health and safety. The place has to be clean. To do that, you've had to build an exhibition which involves craftsmanship, carpentry, all of the other things. Footwear trucks flying around sites, hundreds of contractors, all of those things that come together and it's not necessarily any one thing outside of a flying display, that probably stands out about others. It's the fact that actually sometimes the smallest things can be the big. You only need to look at the absolutely heartbreaking piece that happened with Pret A Manger, with food labeling. I don't believe for one moment anybody at Pret A Manger set out to create that and caused that, and felt that if they'd have known that would have been the outcome, that they wouldn't have made those changes before. But it came from something that had never been an issue before in hundreds of places. I say millions of transactions, that of the whole food industry and how they sell across the world and across the UK. And I think it's that that I look at, it could be somebody carrying a coffee, whatever it might be, and on a site that sometimes larges out half a million square meter site, you can have a whole bunch of of issues that could arise. And I think that's probably why I focus heavily on my last answer on that auditing piece and that prevention piece, because that's the bit that gives me comfort. Because if you don't have the right culture in terms of making sure people understand health and safety is important, if you then don't have a mechanism, a mechanism to speak up and downwards so everybody understands, and everybody understands what they're doing and why they don't know. How you can change things if you don't have transparency to make sure that people know and it's been an issue, and therefore you can rectify it. And then finally, if you don't know that prevention is working, all of those things together are the only way that you can create a safe environment.

Stuart Hughes: 30:27

I think it's a really interesting piece there that you mentioned in terms of the obvious risks are the obvious risks, right? So aerial stunts performed by trained experts in their fighter jets. Yes, whilst I'm sure it causes a bit of heartburn here and there, they're probably very well controlled because of the size of the risk that's associated with it, versus some of the perhaps smaller or mundane things that happen day to day that can trip you over. And I think that's quite an important piece, isn't it actually that the combination of all the things that we look after actually is the piece that gives you that safety across the organization, and helps to enhance that kind of cultural position that you spoke about. So I think they're some really nice loop back through and tie through. One thing that causes me concern is the reputation of the safety profession. We've got a reputation of stopping business, and you hear the things about all of the red tape, and you can't get anything done, and all of these things that I feel are perhaps unfair. I personally see us as an enabling function that lets business happen, and makes good work get done, and stops the bad things from taking place. I wonder where you sit with it, and maybe what change you've seen over your time as a leader.

Gareth Rogers: 31:50

It's a really good point. So firstly, I would say that I think it's an unfair piece, because just generally, over, I don't know, 4050, years, the world has become a more litigious place. That and the consequences of there being mistakes that should have been rectified or should have been looked at, are much greater than they ever were before. And I don't say that that's a bad thing. I'm just saying that's just a reality. And alongside of that, has been, not only in my litigious world, there's a world where it's not okay to injure your employees, maybe, like it was 50/60 years ago. It's just not right, and it's not normal. But there was almost that thing of accidents just happen at work, and if you're unlucky, you're unlucky. That was a culture, in the mid 20th century, and putting those two things together has meant that there's almost been no option that health and safety have had to do that. I mean, what if you don't do it, what's your other option? You know? So I think it's a very unfair tag. But at the same time, what I would say is it's important that you have to go back to that risk piece that I spoke about earlier within this which is a business exists, or an activity generally exists. But speaking out, the majority of businesses, they're there to generate revenue or to create something up, but unless there is a customer paying for something, that customer pays for the wages, the activity, the safety, that all of those things within the organization without that revenue that doesn't exist. And therefore it's never about saying that thing can't happen. I think the important thing is to go, how can I help you make it happen? And by the way, these are the associated risks with that, and is everybody comfortable with those risks that we're taking as a result of this? And if you want to minimize them even further, you could do this, this and this, and it might cost you this. And it becomes a discussion, rather than a you can't do that. And I think that's the bit, if I was to give any advice to those professionals, is deal with it like that, get people to understand the consequences of why you are saying what you're saying. But that doesn't mean to say that you shouldn't do it, and it might be one of the things that we sometimes have a bit of an internal battle on is fencing in certain areas where there are areas where people may fall, walk up and fall off. It might only be a drop of three feet, or four feet, or whatever it might be, but ultimately there's got to be something there. And I understand why we have to put a barrier there. But does the barrier have to look so horrible? So can you do it in a way where you achieve what you need to achieve from a health and safety perspective, but you don't necessarily achieve?

Stuart Hughes: 35:46

But I think one of the really interesting things that you've just spoken about is that kind of friction, or push and pull piece between the kind of commercial elements and the need to have an appreciation for that as a safety professional, but also sometimes we're in conflict, because sometimes the show must go on, but we've also got to have this greater risk awareness. How do we as safety professionals broach the conversation with you guys to ensure that we get the desired safety outcome, but also get the desired commercial outcome?

Gareth Rogers: 36:25

I think it's not just a commercial versus health and safety push and pull. It's often a financial versus health and safety push and pull as well. I think you will probably find across a lot of organizations. I think there's almost two pieces to that. One is the one I was just talking about, which is, from the health and safety professionals perspective, is how do you go about that by looking to resolve a problem rather than create one? I think that the language you use in that I think is important. I think the other big thing is, and particularly if you're struggling, so not necessarily, not very specific, if you're struggling to get health and safety up the agenda at a senior level as well, is do the people in the organization truly understand the risks they face if something goes wrong or if something happens. And you know, there's almost a standing joke in our organization? If anybody wants to get me to sign a purchase order, which I am notoriously tight at is just right health and safety at the top and it will get signed, because I've had it drummed into me that, quite frankly, whilst I might make poor commercial decisions or not the right manufacturing decision, or whatever that might be. Yes, that has an important financial consequence that's very different to what health and safety actually has. There's not just an important financial consequence of the business, there's a personal consequence for myself, and to an extent that's the bit that the health And if I just follow that track along for the listeners if and safety professionals who have worked with me and have done very well in getting that message across over time almost then said, I want to get you to help get that message out to everyone else so they understand we're doing this to protect you. These are the reasons why, if you don't do the right things, these could be the consequences, etc, etc. And I think when you do that, I think most people who are listening to this, who are IOSH professionals, know what they are, I don't need to spell them out, but they are significant, and they are very punitive, both from a financial but actually from a livelihood perspective and the moment you almost understand that it almost becomes an easier conversation. If you combine that with the Okay, now you understand why I'm saying what I'm saying, I'll help understand why you need to achieve what you're achieving, and then we can put both of them together. And I would say that's the age old clash between commercial operations, regardless of whether it's health and safety or not. You get that bit of conversaion right. I would say that to all operational professionals, not that that's the bit. But at the same time, if there are commercial people listening to this or understanding this, is to not just go well, my bit earns money, therefore your bit isn't important. It's to have that understanding back as well. Yeah. they're looking to build better relationships with their leadership, so obviously you've given this piece on on alignment, of understanding of why things were important, which is obviously a key point. But do you have any other tips or bits of advice to help? I suppose to foster a better relationship with the leadership of an organization. I think it is to involve them in the process. If all you ever do is give a report two, three times a year, or once a month, and if you're looking at a leadership of a business and they're getting email reports from all areas of the business, and it's not necessarily that health and safety isn't important. There's probably other areas of the business that they may skim read, or they may go, Okay, I looked through it and they haven't read that one sentence that goes down there that it's important. So to me, it's about, how do you create those touch points, and how do you create them frequent enough so that they're not a hindrance, but you are getting out of it, what you need, and that's going to depend on the levels of the organization that you're speaking. But I think the important bit as well is to ensure that those touch points go throughout the organization, and it's not just this massive gap and jump between a health and safety manager and a CEO, or an Operations Director, you're almost the base of the pyramid, and you start working your way up so it becomes a lot easier to digest as it reaches further up, and they don't necessarily have as much time to understand what the consequences are.

Stuart Hughes: 42:01

Cool. I want to be really respectful of your time, so I'm going to hit some quick fire kind of closes, if that's okay. That's fine. Awesome. So what's the best piece of advice you've ever been given?

Gareth Rogers: 42:14

I'm assuming you mean work wise. I'll do it on a work perspective. I think it is to be wary of what the other person is trying to tell you and why.

Stuart Hughes: 42:33

Okay, and then, on the flip of that, what's the worst bit of advice you've been given?

Gareth Rogers: 42:40

I don't really know, I'm not sure I have really been given really poor advice, but in terms of maybe common things I hear, it's not about how much work you do, it's about how well you do work. And I think that's the important piece, I think somebody said something in our an exec meeting the other day, and I think our marketing director said, nothing much matters, but what matters matters most. Actually it might have been, what matters is most important, or something like that. But it was, don't lose sight of the thing. Don't lose sight of why you're doing something that would probably be first to pass anything across, sir.

Stuart Hughes: 43:42

Nice. And I think you're obviously running in some good circles to have not got any bad advice.

Gareth Rogers: 43:48

I probably have, I just can't think of it. It will come to mind.

Stuart Hughes: 43:53

What's the one book that you would constantly return to, or perhaps gift most often?

Gareth Rogers: 44:01

This is where I'm going to admit that I don't spend a huge amount of time reading books. So I struggle to answer that. I have recently been diagnosed that I have ADHD and a tinge of autism as well, and therefore sitting and reading books for huge amounts of times isn't really something that I particularly find easy to do.

Stuart Hughes: 44:30

Fair enough. Thank you for being candid about that. I think there's a lot of things that people assume all Leaders are readers type scenario. And I think you can get learning and knowledge and growth in many different ways, can't you? So, I think that's more than appropriate.

Gareth Rogers: 44:51

More likely to find me listening to a History podcast or reading a management book.

Stuart Hughes: 44:55

Give us a podcast recommendation instead then. How about that?

Gareth Rogers: 44:59

I listen to a podcast, the rest of history is mainly what I listen to, but others as well. But I enjoy that because I enjoy learning the lessons of history and what happened and why things happened.

Stuart Hughes: 45:14

Great. And either take this from from something you've learned in history, or maybe a personal example. But what failures provided you with the greatest learning?

Gareth Rogers: 45:32

I'd say, probably my own more than anything, where I've tried to do projects where I feel I'm responsible for everything, and therefore need to do everything. And I learned that in my time when I worked at Deloitte, there were certain projects I did, I remember a project once that I was working hours and hours and hours on, really early in the morning, late at night, but rather than control the project, I was too busy being the one trying to do everything and show I could do everything. And I wasn't taking a step back and looking at it and getting people to help. It was so now I've got to do this. Now, I've got to this done again. And I think that would be one of the biggest learning points. Is that difference between being responsible for something and controlling it, versus being the one who feels they have to do everything within it. And that, to me is, I know this is not a leadership podcast, but that, to me, will be one of the biggest things as people move up from managing a pro, sort of doing a process to managing a process, they are two fundamentally different things. And then you could probably put that across into health and safety, because, of course, if you've got a large site and everything else, you can't be responsible for everything, so you have to find ways of relying on other people, other things, other processes, to give you the information that that you need, rather than you being the one having to do it all.

Stuart Hughes: 47:18

I think that's a really, really sound piece of No, I think I'm not some great fountain of knowledge. So I've advice. And actually, I think a large proportion of the safety population will relate to that, and I think particularly myself, as you move from being a doer to a leader and being responsible hopefully imparted the odd thing across to you and something that for the team and stopping doing the things you used to do, and that transition is quite challenging. So I think, I'll take that nice bit of learning on. And, yeah, thank you. Thank your listeners and members might find of some use, and keep you very much for for your time today. Really, really appreciate it. If there's anything else you want to leave us with, please do I really appreciate it and you might not describe yourself as a fighting the good fight, because it is important, despite what some people may tell you, it isn't. fountain of knowledge, but there's definitely some really interesting and insightful bits in the conversation. So I'm very grateful to you for giving us the time, for agreeing to do it. And yeah, thank you very much. And I wish you a very pleasant and enjoyable weekend.

Gareth Rogers: 48:35

No problem. Thank you, Stuart.

Stuart Hughes: 48:37

Take care.